Dr. Joe Sallustio: Relevance – Regain It, Restore It, Own It

What does it take for higher education to remain relevant in a world changing faster than many institutions can adapt?

In the first episode of Audacious Ideas, Tiffin University President Dr. Lillian Schumacher sits down with Joe Sallustio, chief of industry engagement at Ellucian and co-founder and host of The EdUp Experience, who has interviewed more than 475 college and university presidents. 

Drawing on that unique perspective, Joe shares what separates leaders who are successfully driving change from those struggling to keep pace. The conversation explores the changing role of the college president, the danger of chasing “silver bullets,” the growing gap between AI literacy and the AI competency employers expect, and why relationships may become even more valuable as technology reshapes how we work.  

Dr. Schumacher also takes listeners inside Tiffin University’s AI Forward strategy and asks Joe to weigh in on how institutions can better connect innovation, employer expectations, and the student experience. 

The conversation ultimately comes back to one word: relevance. For Joe, the challenge facing higher education is clear: “Regain it, restore it, own it.” 

In this episode:

•  What today’s most effective college presidents have in common 
•  Why leaders sometimes need to “fire themselves” and see their organizations with fresh eyes 
•  The difference between AI literacy and AI competency 
•  How employers and universities can better align 
•  Why technology adoption starts with institutional readiness 
•  How relationships become currency in an increasingly AI-enabled world 
•  The career decision that changed Joe’s trajectory

Connect with Dr. Schumacher on LinkedIn. https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-lillian-schumacher/

Transcript

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Dr. Lillian Schumacher 0:01

Welcome to Audacious Ideas, a podcast on leadership, decision making, and what it takes to move organizations forward in complex environments. Across industries, organizations are navigating disruption, shifting expectations, and increasing pressure for results. What sets them apart is not the disruption itself, but how leaders are responding through the way they think, the way they decide, and the way they execute. This podcast explores what's really changing, why organizations struggle to adapt, and what effective leadership looks like through it all. Because leadership isn't about having all of the answers, it is about having the courage to move forward without them. I am Dr. Lillian Schumacher, president of Tiffin University, and this is Audacious Ideas. Well, hello everyone. I am so excited. I am here with Joe, and I just can't wait to have a conversation with him. And Joe, hey, I don't have like the nice little sounds that you have on EdUp, you know, but you know, who knows? Maybe we'll we'll build those in soon.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 1:13

But you I know you're an expert, so you're gonna get them eventually.

Introducing Dr. Joe Sallustio

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 1:17

Well, Joe, tell us about you.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 1:19

Well, first of all, thank you for having me on. And what an honor it is to be your first. I think I'm your first guest. It's a huge honor. I can't tell you how much it means to me and our friendship Lillian to be here. My name is Joe Salustio. I am the chief of industry engagement at ed tech company Ellucian where I spend a lot of my time working with college presidents and boards to make sure that they know what's going on with higher ed technology. I moonlight as a podcaster. Um, I am the co-founder and host of the Ed Up Experience podcast, which has now produced over, recorded and produced over 1,300 episodes with colleagues across higher education, in higher education, including interviews with over 475 college and university presidents that I've conducted myself. So lots of incoming information. We now have an app on the app store that synthesizes information. We've got right, I got a book coming up, we've got all sorts of stuff going on, and I like to stay active. So I decided I'm gonna teach a podcasting course also at the University of Florida in my very, very, very limited spare time.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 2:26

Great, thanks. And you are such the appropriate person for me to have as my first podcast episode. So thank you, Joe. Appreciate it so much. So the one question I've been dying to ask you about. Um, you know, the last we spoke and we interacted, you actually referenced a Hollywood character when you were talking about the last podcast I did with you. You referred me to and connected me with a Hollywood character. And I just was so, I was just so excited to see that. And so tell me about that. What what made you do that? Tell me how you kind of came to came to, you know, identify that particular character with my leadership. Uh just really curious about that.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 3:06

You gotta remind me what what we were talking about because I, I'm blanking. Is it is it my wrap-up, my newsletter?

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 3:13

So, you know, this is hilarious because I should remember her name. But so we the last EdUp podcast I had done with you, and then I shared a white paper that I had done with you about you know, really leaning through courage and I remember. Um yeah, and and you actually made this reference to a Hollywood character to describe my leadership style in higher education. Um, and I was just curious about that analogy. It was it was a kind of a super, it wasn't like Wonder Woman, and I can't, I actually can't.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 3:44

Well, you could be Wonder Woman. I mean, it could absolutely, I like Wonder Woman.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 3:47

I definitely like Wonder Woman, but it was somebody else that was from some interesting show.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 3:55

This is the great thing about podcasting, is sometimes it's so organic, you gotta just like figure out, you gotta record. I don't, I don't remember, but what I will say is first of all, you're a great person to interview. And let me tell you why. Um, you say things that need to be said in a way that people need to hear them versus just saying them, right? Like, oh, we need to change in higher ed. When you say it, it comes with the the distinct actions that that need to happen behind it, and that's not always common. And I interview a lot of presidents, as you know, not everybody is created equal. And when you're thinking about driving change in higher education, you have to be, you have to say it, or else it will never happen. And that's what I'm seeing really across the industry is there's so many that are talking about the change that needs to take place, and not as many actioning on that change. And if they are, it's coming really slow. Um, so I think Wonder Woman's appropriate for you. I can't remember who we talked about, but I do like Wonder Woman.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 4:57

Um I've got it, yeah, I've got to go back and look that up because it was it was she was she was interesting. She was an interesting analogy that you made, but I was pretty impressed when I read it.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 5:08

Oh it wasn't it kid the the actress from Kill Bill. I think I wrote this.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 5:13

Yes, yes, that was it.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 5:14

So yeah, I wrote my newsletter, the EdUp Wrap Up. And I when we spoke in our podcast episode, you were talking about making sure that you have to cut what needs to be cut. You have to, you have to make those hard decisions. And so it was Kill Bill because she had the cut list.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 5:35

That's right.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 5:35

Yeah, and I thought that was appropriate for you when you were talking about look, we just can't do everything in higher education. We have to make the hard decisions that are are aren't always going to be popular.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 5:46

Thank you. I'm so glad you remembered that. That was really good. Yep.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 5:49

Yeah. I got there. It just took me a minute, you know. So my brain works slowly.

Personas of a President

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 5:54

Tell me about it. Um, so you know, you have talked to hundreds of presidents, right? And you have talked about, and I just love every single episode that I listen to of Ed Up. I just I always walk away with at least, you know, one new idea, one new thought to really think about and and you know, try to figure out if I need to take it to a different level. You always give me something to think about when when you when I listen to your podcast and and listen to the presidents that you've spoken with. And, you know, I just think about some of those conversations, and you alluded to it, but when you think about the world of higher ed, the industry that we're in right now, and all the disruption, all the headwinds, all the tailwinds, you know, what is it do you think that, who are the presidents that stand out for you and why? Like what is it about them? What is it about their leadership style? What is it about the way that they are leading their institutions of higher ed today that stand out for you?

Dr. Joe Sallustio 6:56

That's really important question because there are significant differences. And of course, I'm not gonna name any names because I've interviewed so many people, you start to see the distinctiveness in who's making the moves, who's not. So, first of all, as you know, the presidential tenure is on the decline. And so I do encounter many people that are, you know, it's less often I find somebody with 10 years or more of tenure, and more often I'm finding somebody between one and four or one and five years of tenure in their role. There are those that are more in their role for less time. Sometimes it's a first presidency, more often it's first presidency, sometimes it's a second or third, but more often it's a first. And there's a lot of figuring out how to drive this change. You know, like I know I need to do something. And this whole like one to I'm gonna take my first year and have my presidential listening tour, and I'm gonna go to it's like those days are over because you're getting hired to create the change. So you better figure it out quickly. And the the the structural change, it's not moving faster because you were hired to make it move faster. It's still gonna move at a snail's pace, but you have to figure out how to how to navigate it. So that's one of the differentiators that I see some presidents that are very smart about how to navigate that and drive change. Like they they find those innovators, they separate them out, they're thinking about funding model differences for those that are innovating with AI versus those that are detractors and moving money to those innovations versus not. Um, there are there are some that are timid on making the change because they're not gonna stay at the university that they're currently residing in. Yeah, and so it becomes like, well, you know, I could do this, but that's a two-year project. I'm not so sure I'm gonna be here in a year. So I'm gonna just sort of wait and see what happens. That's happening sometimes too. Um, and that's unfortunate, but you know, it's it's not hard to understand. It can be unfortunate for that institution. The board may not know that. Um, and then the third sort of persona, if you will, is the president that's been been in their role for a long time, but they figured out how to fire themselves multiple times versus versus sitting in the role and you know, walking, but you know, the coffee stain thing, you walk by the coffee stain and see it. The the presidents who are really innovating who have been in the institution for a long time are going, you know what, I'm literally gonna fire myself today. And I'm coming back tomorrow as a brand new employee, and I'm gonna look at this with new eyes, or I'm gonna take a month break. And they figure out ways to look at things, at things through new lenses, and that awareness is a huge differentiator.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 9:49

That is so true. It's so funny because I, you know, you know, you and I have talked about this. I'm in this role 10 years now, and you know, a president needs to self-reflect, often to say, is there still more work to be done here that I actually can lead and be the visionary for? And not only lead that vision, but understand what it what it takes to execute that vision, right? And it's funny because I refer to it as , you know, I had a mentor that I worked with that she would always talk about Joanne Soliday from Credo. She founded Credo and she would talk about, she wrote a book on this, Chapters of a Presidency and the ability to really look at staying power. And I love how you call it, you know, you could wake up and fire yourself, right? One day, and then, you know, think about what you need to do moving forward. She would call it chapters of the presidency. And I think about that in terms of my own leadership and how I really need to be intentional about the chapters of my leadership, right? And so, you know, what we've done at the institution, as you know, is we've focused on a growth mindset. And it's really important to make sure there are priorities aligned with that. There are operational dollars that are dedicated to that, right? And that we are measuring the success as we go on how well we're doing or not doing. Um, you know, you you talk about presidents that that have been doing that. I also wonder, you know, to your point about longevity and time, you can't necessarily come in and take all these time, all this time to do a listening tour anymore, but you also still have to listen before you can actually , you know, make some of those changes. So I think about the fact often, Joe, that sometimes I feel maybe it took me too long to start to make this transformation at the institution. You know, I often joke around and say, well, it took me eight years to be able to move myself from working in the business to working on the business. Um, and and I sometimes will give myself a hard time that it took too long, right? And so You're too hard on yourself. Well, thank you for that. But I guess I wonder, right? You know, I don't know that we can we can actually say it's gonna take, you know, you know, three years or it's gonna take five years, but because the longevity of presidencies today continues to get shorter and shorter, it is tough, right? And so I think there's a balance, would you say? Would you agree? There's a balance between, you know, creating that organizational urgency with ensuring that you have a model for change in place because you have to bring your employees along in whatever kind of change you're making at the institution, whether it's transactional or more importantly,

Influencing Change

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 12:41

transformational.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 12:42

No doubt. I think by by and large, right, there's a another foundational concept that comes before that, which is people gotta like you enough to go along with you, right? Like that they got to believe in what you're selling with that vision. They they have to like you as a person enough, or at least they respect you enough to go, I'm getting along with this. I know a university right now, again, nameless, where they're looking for the silver bullet all the time. And I see the disruption at this university. And I see a lot of employees and recent layoffs and people that I know that are going, what, you know, it's just like silver silver bullet chasing. And you that is a dangerous operating model because it seems like there's a lot of silver bullets out there right now. And it's that balance of vision to say, here are the components that I need to drive, here's the end goal, and here's how I get there, that that is the difference between those that are driving institutional success and those that are that are panicking right now. And that that's a big difference. Like that you to your point, managing that balance, understanding the players, making people happy to be, you know, you cannot drive change when people are unhappy. It it won't even the people who are usually on board with you, if they're not happy in their job, they have no incentive to change. And so there's a responsibility as a leader that we have to create a good workplace culture.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 14:07

Yeah.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 14:07

But we have happy employees. And when you say, hey guys, what do you think about this? They go, man, that that's such a great idea. Yeah, maybe we should try that because that's what happy people do. And when you're not, when you're feeling inferior job or you're uncertain, you have you lose all incentive to believe in somebody else because you're so inward-focused or worried about your job and your kids and your salary. And you're like, I'm just gonna fly under the radar every time somebody, and that balance is imbalanced in many universities right now, especially when you're looking at cuts, especially when you have those pressures, it can turn negative really fast. And I think there are some presidents out there that cannot manage

DNA of a Sucessful President?

Dr. Joe Sallustio 14:45

that.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 14:45

Yeah, that's such a such a great point. You know, when I think about the institutions and the presidents that you've talked to, it's really been across sectors, right? Community colleges, public institutions, for you know, privates, you know, independent, religiously affiliated, et cetera, et cetera. As you think about the different, you know, factors within the president's role. And I know there are different challenges depending on the sector that you're in, right? But if you think about the ideal, call it DNA of a president that can successfully lead, given the industry and where it is today, what would you say maybe three to five of those competencies are that come to mind for you in terms of the type of DNA that president must have today to successfully lead?

Dr. Joe Sallustio 15:37

Man, these are these are good questions that you have come up with here, Dr. Schumacher. Um so I'm gonna roll with what I said first, and I'm gonna say if if there is one characteristic above others, it's authenticity for me. Like we're in a world of social media, social proof. And if you are too tight and too formal and too, you know, elitist and too bossy, and and you're not one of the people in this industry where people are breaking their backs to serve these students, you might as well just pack it in and go home.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 16:13

Yeah.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 16:14

So that for me is is a really important one. Um, I used to had this like moment of conscience with myself where I for a while when I started Ed Up and Elvin and I, we were talking a lot about how presidents need to come out from outside higher education. And you know, we need we need people who've run a business and we need people that are that it that have this perspective. At some point, I changed my mind on that. Um, because there was a time period where higher ed was struggling where that was the narrative. So it's like bring in somebody from the outside. And through experiences, I can tell you that that I think industry knowledge is absolutely critical. And it doesn't necessarily have to be academic. I think we're seeing more presidents that are enrollment experts, fundraising in the fundraising areas, many in the student services where your you have had those really hard moments with a student and you know a little bit about Title IV financial aid and you know a little bit about governments and higher education and how to operate, whether it's public with collective bargaining and all this other stuff, but you've seen it. And if you come from outside the industry, you might have a shot at making it, but a lot of time, a lot of times it doesn't happen. So that's another one. I think the industry knowledge really does matter. It doesn't have to be 20 years, but it has to be something. Um the ability to challenge status quo in a way that you don't alienate your team around you, you know. Show me the policy on this and why is it why are we following it? And is it a federally mandated guideline, or have we just been following a policy by by Frank, who doesn't even work here anymore because he's the one that wrote it and put it in the catalog? But I didn't even like Frank, so why the heck are we following it? Like, who created these things? Um, asking those really important questions in in a way that challenges the business model itself. Is so how do we challenge the model? Is it and that it's you didn't ask this, but I'm gonna tell you, sprawl is something I'm seeing with some presidents. Like, do we go for the 90 credit bachelors? Should we think about workforce Pell? Should we focus on prior learning assessment and and credit transfer? Should we focus on dual credit and dual enrollment? Like, what are we focusing on? And that sprawl, silver bullet chasing is is one of, you know, let's it's becoming more common. So how how do you how do you take how do you recognize your mission and have everyone believe in it and use that to guide that decision making instead of chasing a silver bullet is part of that key. Like presidents who either have been there for a while, have I'm seeing way more hires of presidents who've graduated from the institution. They're an al and they're coming back because there's some tie and they're looking for that stability. The board is looking for stability. I'm seeing that more and more. Those those things I think are standing out to me. And I talk a lot, so please

Bridging the Alignment Gap Between Business and Higher Education

Dr. Joe Sallustio 19:20

interrupt me.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 19:20

But no, Joe, I mean, this is really, really good, and you're absolutely right. And again, you know, you have such a data set of of all these individuals that you've spoken with. You know, that's so true. That, you know, the silver bullet that you've talked about, you know, through our time together today is so, you know, everybody wants it, right? Because that's the easy, if we can find that one thing, if we can just find that one thing that's gonna make a difference and really build enrollment for us, you know, that'll solve all our all problems. It just isn't, it isn't reality, right? It just totally isn't. When you think of shifting a little bit, you know, one of the things that I think about is especially, you know, as a small private institution, you know, we're trying to always build relationships with employers, with corporate partners, and just making sure that those relationships are solid and that we our mission of transforming our students' lives and making sure they have the best experience from the moment they join our institution, whether it's on campus or online or at a distance, however that may be, at a campus that we have, a satellite campus, we want to make sure that they have the education, but the relevant skills and competencies that they need to be to be employed, right? Um it is a value investment that everybody is making in in a college education. And so as you think about it and some of the corporate leaders that you've talked with, what are we missing? What's you know, there's some disconnect, right, between what we're doing and how we're building partnerships and the expectations of what we have for our graduates and maybe what some employee employers are expecting. Um, are we missing particular aspects? And do you have any advice for how higher ed and corporate can work more successfully together and more intentionally to be successful?

Dr. Joe Sallustio 21:11

Well, I think one of the first things we have to do as an industry is restore, regain, restore whatever R-word you want to use, our relevance to the public. Because the public runs these companies in many respects. People who are in the general public are a business owner or they are somebody who's gonna hire the graduates and they're going, well, do I need people with a degree? I'm not sure I do. You know, I think that that's important. And it is it is moments like this, like yourself, a college president who who has their own podcast, who's gonna tell the stories that are important that helps us get there. It's why we we do it, we do it at EdUp too. And and it's like, you know, that's those stories are important to tell. Like we're real people too. We're in the backyard at the barbecue talking about higher ed too. Um, so what did we make? Like, how did this happen? So recognizing how it got away from us and how we regain it, the relevance that is. Um, you know, right now, if you talk about employers and universities, you have to talk about artificial intelligence, right? Because the the what's happening in many colleges and universities is laggard adoption of the fact that employers don't want AI literate graduates, they want AI competent graduates. And there's a very big difference between understanding what artificial intelligence can do and walking on the job in day one, and that that company saying, I'm looking for you to help me solve some of my operational issues with artificial intelligence, and that student going, Oh, I I've used 30 programs at my university. I know exactly how to do this. And that's part of what's missing that I see when I do my research and my talks is we're talking so much about AI literacy and the employment, the employers are talking about AI competency. I'm a company that starts on day one that can run this thing and help me save money on my business. And that that disconnect, that what we have to solve, and we have to solve it broadly. It can't just be one institution, it's gotta be all of us broadly, or it hurts the relevance, it hurts the reputation of what higher education is producing, what kind of graduates we're producing. So for me, it's we got to listen. We just talked about listening earlier. Like you're your college president, you gotta listen. If you bring an employer into a faculty meeting, the employer says, Hey guys, I need you to teach more AI stuff. I need my students to like use this stuff, and the faculty go, well, you know, we're we're not gonna be doing that. It's like, well, then we're not gonna be pumping out graduates that the industry wants. And then we don't have the program that you love running. Then it's on the cut list. All right, it all goes back to it all goes back to that. Um, so that's I've seen that shift, the conversation shift from we need to accept AI to like literally employers telling us AI competent graduates. So what are we what are we gonna do about it?

Innovating with AI

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 24:09

Yeah, that's such a great point. So I wanna I wanna share with you what we're doing at Tiffin University with AI, and I want you to give me feedback on it. And it can be good feedback, bad feedback, anything, okay? Because I I've been really, really proud of our faculty and our provost chief operating officer and everybody at the institution that's embraced it, right? So you go back to October of 23. When we had our faculty workshop that following May, our faculty, the entire workshop theme was how are we going to utilize artificial intelligence as a tool to really challenge us to teach differently, right? To really help students learn differently rather than be avoiding it or trying to control the way students are using it. And so really proud of the fact that we started to look at this way back when, because to your point, you can't lag in this. So, fast forward to where we are today, most of our faculty are really using artificial intelligence, different prompts as opportunities for learning in the classroom, which is wonderful. We've also created curriculum. So on the academic side for our students, we have a prompt engineering class that every single student has to take. It's part of the Gen Core, right? So they know how to use different prompts to help them be more effective in whatever work they're doing, right? Not to cheat, not to do any of that, but to be more effective and more productive in the work that they're doing. We've also created a minor in that space for undergraduate students. We have a major in artificial intelligence and prompt engineering, and we've actually gone so far as to have a major or a graduate degree in this as well. So really infused it throughout our academic curriculum for our students so that depending on their appetite and how in-depth they want to go with this, they can do that. And we have a couple faculty in particular on our on the faculty that have really been leading this effort. So we're calling this AI Forward, and that's one of the tenets of AI Forward. The other one is we are using it in our own operational efficiencies, right? And so we're using it in enrollment management, we're using it in academic advising, we're using it throughout the organization to really help us be more productive so that we're spending time doing things that matter. We are not, you know, sending out the the hundred emails that you send out that really artificial intelligence can do. What are we doing then? We're spending more relational time with our prospective students to spend that connecting, getting to know them time with them. And so we're not replacing the human relational piece of recruiting students. We're trying to spend time and shift the work into a way that makes more sense. And so I'm really proud of that. I, of course, you know, my my provost and and chief operating officer will tell you, I always want us to move faster. We're always trying to move faster, right? But what but I it's really, really good work. And so I guess my first question to you is, you know, what are we missing with that perspective? Um, and and you know, what else should we be doing? And then a follow-up question that I have is I, you know, as an organization, I think sometimes we struggle to promote ourselves really well. And so I guess the advice I would ask you is how do we make sure we get this out into the world that we're doing this, right? That this is really this competency development that we're we're wanting for our students and that we expect of our students moving forward. And we want to be able to promote this as a distinctive competitive advantage for students that come to Tiffin University.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 28:03

Yeah, I mean, I I don't know that I'm an expert enough to answer all those questions or give you feedback when you're really the expert. But I would say, kudos. First of all, what what I see is you have the right structure. You have you're thinking about it for operations, you're thinking about it for faculty development and teaching and learning, and you've named it. You've got a like initiative for it, which means that there's accountabilities around it. I could tell you for a fact that not many institutions have named this AI initiative in some way. And once you put a name to it and you get adoption around that, it becomes something that the university pushes forward as a group rather than it being segmented adoption or individual-based adoption. And I I do, you know, I do a lot of keynotes at universities and I do AI boot camps and I do, you know, I can tell you examples. I'll give you one, I'll never name the names, but I was on stage in an auditorium and I'm doing this AI boot camp for a fact. There's like 500 people there. It's like an employee development day. And at one point, I'm up like on a on a like a commit, like a stage, a commit. And so the, you know, it's like an auditorium. At one point in them, as I'm talking, I'm sort of getting the fac part of the staff or faculty on one side of the room were talking to another group of faculty and staff on the other side of the room while I was giving the presentation about AI or no AI. So it was sort of like an English parliament meeting where they're all getting up and yelling at each other at the table. And and I have a lot of those moments when I talk to schools where they they have cognitive dissonance. And it's it's because the institution hasn't yet gone, here's this initiative, and everything we do is is pushing towards this initiative. I think that to come back to our earlier point, do the employers where your students go work know that you have AI Forward? And that becomes its own marketing in a sense, because your graduates and they also want people to go to school at Tiffin because right. And so that employer community and getting out, I think that's where you start, which probably already are doing. But I think letting those employers know that you know that you're putting out AI competent graduates embedded in the curriculum. I mean, a prompt engineering course that everybody takes is just it's great and so foundational right now. And students are doing it whether you give them the direction or not. So why wouldn't we give them the direction?

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 30:34

Yep, that's exactly right. That's that's so true. You know, related to this, and and I don't have any proof of this, this is just kind of anecdotal. I've heard it from some of my colleagues, that there is this group of students that are not really happy with AI. They don't really want to be part or really engage in it. Um, have you have you ran across that? Have you have you read anything about that? Have you had experiences around that? What do you think that's about?

Dr. Joe Sallustio 31:00

Yeah, I have seen it more in the arts. Students who are graphic designers, who are writers, who are, you know, actors, where artificial intelligence has displaced workers in that industry. Um there was a a school where I went in to do an AI boot camp, and part of the part of the the way they marketed around campus is they created an AI generated image of like an AI boot camp and then put my information on it. And apparently some of the students had come by on that and some of the other and and wrote this is AI generated, not human generated. Right. So market it. Um so I I see it happen in those industries, though those arts industries more often. It is happening, it is, it's actually becoming a really good differentiator for institutions that focus on the arts that are trying to look for a different way to communicate what they do. Like come to this, you know, arts and in, you know, arts and visual , you know, AI college, whatever, where you know, you're gonna do more human work too, you know, where it's gonna be AI complementing your work rather than supplement, you know, supplementing it. It is happening. Um and you know, the day I think the danger with artificial intelligence that we're we're seeing and I I'm seeing in a lot students are using it for personal use, they don't want it necessarily to displace their job, but they're using it to enhance their job. They don't like it when other people use it around their job. That makes sense. Yeah, but but I will tell you, and you know, you since you brought it up, I mean the writing piece, no one wants students to use AI to write.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 32:46

Right. That's correct.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 32:48

But but I can produce, I, a student, can produce a three to five page or five to seven page paper really easy. Now, even if you don't use AI, you can use it to do the majority of the work, even if you write it yourself every bit. Like it can it can write most of it and you're just moving stuff around so that it beats a AI detector, which means all of the learning is on the front end, not the output. It used to be the output. Show the output, show how you've learned in this paper. And now it's show how you've put how you're gonna put all this together to get this result. And the learning is shifted, and that shift in where the learning is taking place is not yet widely adopted being adopted through colleges and universities, but it's happening in real time with students.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 33:35

That is an amazing point that I had not thought about. You're absolutely correct. Wow, great.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 33:42

And it's like, how do I create some project-based work or how do I how do I ask a student, like, what prompt would you use to create this kind of paper? Here, here's the paper. I used AI to create this. Replicate the prompt and write me a short summary of how you created the prompt. So AI AI couldn't write that, right? Because it's got it's your creativity. But I wanted you to analyze the paper and tell me what kind of prompt you would create and put it in an essay format for me. You know, just start to think about the possibilities of how we assess the output and the critical thinking, the problem solving is all happening on how you're putting these things together. It's like adult Legos.

Leveraging Tech to Innovate

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 34:21

Yeah, it is like adult Legos. I've heard that analogy come up often, by the way. Yeah, that's great. That's great. All right, let me let me shift us a little bit. So, you know, you also have the you also work for Ellucian, and Ellucian is a major ed tech company and they're doing a lot. Um, kind of at this intersection of what you do with Ed Up and then you, you know, working with Ellucian. Um, where do you see opportunities for for institutions to partner with experts like Ellucian? You know, this is your opportunity maybe to kind of plug if you want to, in terms of where the, you know, complementary. Um, you know, I always talk about the organizations that I will work with are not vendors. They are partners, right? And that what I mean by a partner is they're bringing the thought leadership, they're bringing the expertise that we don't have ourselves, because that partnership is truly one that is a win-win, right? Is one where there is definitely equal, if you will, contributions because the partner, meaning the institution in this case, has to bring forward what it is expecting from that that partner with the thought leader expert, if you will. So how is Elluccian kind of working in some of these spaces? And what how would you plug the company to be able to to really work well with institutions like ours?

Dr. Joe Sallustio 35:43

Well, well, thank you very much for bringing this up. Uh I I will here's what I would say. Um for 23, almost 24 years, I was on the institutional side. So I was selecting the vendors, all the technology vendors. And so I have the intimate knowledge of what it takes on both sides now of of the institutional requirements through a technology adoption, which really fails a lot of times, and it fails because the institution doesn't isn't ready for it and doesn't create adoption at the level it needs to happen, and for a technology company to make sure it's delivering the service that that the institution needs and knowing the language, and that that's what I think I my value proposition is to to Ellucian and why I'm here is because I'm a translator in a lot of ways, and you know, the tech company says, Oh, this institution's gonna want this. And I go, Yeah, they're gonna want this, but this thing that you're describing, like they're not gonna understand a lick of what you're saying. We need to make sure that it's connected to how it's how it affects the student or what's gonna happen to solve this problem. Um, I I think that institutions right now, by and large, are looking, we talked about looking at artificial intelligence, and so many still are are on premise. And if you just look at it from a technology standpoint, if you want to AI, if you want to adopt artificial intelligence, you have to be in the cloud. Like that's the a foundational piece to AI adoption for your student data that's in your student information system or across your ERP, is that if you want to be able to actualize that in the future, you have to be in in the cloud because it's the AI functionality doesn't work with prem-based environments. That's that's just like foundation, right? But if you think about the future of a student inform the student information system is like the big thing, it's always this big thing. It holds all the data, all social security, your credits are rolling through there, your Title IV. We understate the importance of it, but it's got everything in it. And it's you know, that's why hackers are so like enamored with higher ed is because you get so much data, you get family names and family income, and you get so much. Um imagine a world where, and you know, Ellucian has multiple products. We purchased Anthology, we have Banner and Colleague, right? But imagine a world where you as the user didn't actually go into the student information system anymore, but that you had an AI prompt like Claude or Chat GPT or otherwise that you prompted that was connected directly to your data through all of all of the Ellucian's expertise and knowledge, where you just said, Hey, I need to change Lillian's schedule. She's moving from track A to track B, and I need to update her phone number. And the agentic AI went into this and did it for you. And that's where the future of the technology is headed, which means to get to that, there are big transitions that have to happen at the inner at the colleges and universities, which is getting to the cloud, which is money and time and a headache and all those things that come with necessary.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 39:08

Oh my goodness. Yeah.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 39:10

But imagine never going into your sys and going, hey, change this phone number or you know, what disperse this financial aid over three terms, and it just did it. And you were checking to make sure that it was done correctly instead of having to go into fields and disperse something manually.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 39:26

Mind blowing. I mean, geez, yeah, you're not kidding. That is just absolutely phenomenal.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 39:31

Wow. And that's what we're working on, and that's why I am here, because that is what I have been after for 24 stinking years is getting to that point where I was working outside of the systems and the technology hadn't caught up, and now it's here.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 39:47

That's great. Thank you for sharing that. And you're right, you know, that gift that you have of working in higher education and now working for a company like Ellucian, that you're really able because that is so true, right? So much frustration happens because we don't necessarily know how to articulate what it is that we need or want, but we know that we need and want it, right? And so having that translator, if you will, which really you are is is really, is really, really neat to hear.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 40:13

Well, and you guys, you know this your time is so limited. If you're gonna look at an email and it's not written for you as a president, you're you're like, not only will you not read that email, you're never gonna read another email from that person ever again.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 40:26

Very true.

Relationships are Currency

Dr. Joe Sallustio 40:27

I I do a lot of like, you know, I work in relationship equity. That's where relationship is currency. I I believe in the power of friendships and and you know, collegial relationships. And I just think that always supersedes anything else. And in the end, people need to know that they have someone that's looking out for them, you know, because you guys are doing, I I have to say you guys now because I don't work in an institution anymore, but it's hard work, it's hard, important work and to have friends that are out there that go, you know what, I got your back. I'm gonna be there for you when something happens, is is necessary.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 41:05

We are starting to talk about that so much because that relational piece that you're talking about is just so important, right? It is. It is, it is because and it's so funny because I had just gotten an email from one of our board members who ran into somebody that they know in their circles that went on and on and on about how excited they were that their child and their child's friend was going to start with us in the fall. And it was amazing because she talked about an experience that our admissions staff provided these two students that are coming to our institution that were all about relationships, all about relationships and the fact that from the moment they stepped on campus, they felt like they belonged because we were so focused on making sure we learned about them. And I couldn't tell you what a proud mom I felt like at that point in time that our staff is that focused on making sure that the relationship that they establish, which each and every individual that we interact with, is first and foremost a priority. Because I think sometimes we take that for granted. But honestly, it is so simple, isn't it? It is so simple if we just focus on the relationship with the individual with whom we are interacting, right?

Dr. Joe Sallustio 42:27

I I gotta tell you, I I love it. And I I as artificial intelligence continues to embed ourselves in the world, it n bs us in many ways. And the differentiator that we will have that that our that young people will have is the ability, the ability to navigate a room, the ability to walk up to somebody and say, Hey, what's your name? Nice to meet you. You know, want to go on a date with me? I mean, that I don't think that happens anymore. You know, or hi, what do you do for a living? And oh, maybe we can connect. I that is gonna be a skill that is gonna we are gonna have to like fight to maintain for for young people because then they're gonna go in the work world and it is about who you know sometimes. It is, it is about who you know, it

A Decision that Changed Your Trajectory

Dr. Joe Sallustio 43:08

absolutely is.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 43:09

So I think always has been, always will be, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. All right, my friend, as we kind of wind down here, I want to ask you a personal question. As you think about your your career, very successful career, and you're still very, very young, so lots, lots ahead of you, and you think about a decision maybe that you made once upon a time that just changed it, changed your trajectory in terms of you know what you're doing today or what you thought you would never do or whatever. What is can you think of a time in your experience that you were like, wow, had I not done that, had I not taken that chance or or trusted the process, maybe I wouldn't be here today. Is there anything that comes to mind? Yeah.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 43:54

Yes. Um there's there's a couple, but I'm gonna go to one that I think will will resonate. With a lot of people. So I I've been in higher ed for a very long time and very quick, long story short, but I worked in the for-profit sector for 15 years. The dark side, this is where the Darth Vader song plays, you know. And I worked for a company that was publicly traded on the Nasdaq, regionally accredited, publicly traded on the Nasdaq, 15,000 online students, 3,000 ground students. This is a pre-sizable school. But the the board, which had control, right? Like because there was equity and control. It was imagine a U-shaped board table. And when you presented to the board, there was a ramp that walked downwards. So when you were actually speaking to the board, you were like at a chest level and the board was sort of sitting up above you.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 44:47

Oh wow.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 44:48

It was a very intentionally designed room. Um, but I remember walking to that room, and there were 25 people around the table. I don't know how many, 25, it's probably too many, but say 15. It was a lot, right? And everybody had a name tag, and it was doctor, doctor, doctor, doctor, doctor, doctor, doctor, dot, da da da da da da da da da all the way around, Mr. Joe Salustio. And I thought that will not happen again. Um, that will not happen again. I will not get so the next day I enrolled in school to get my doctorate degree.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 45:21

Oh my God.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 45:23

Um, and I I achieved it, obviously, three years, three years after that. But had I not done that, breaking into nonprofit higher education would have been maybe impossible at that point. But I had gotten a job while I was in doctor, you know, I got in a high-level job at a I was a COO for an online college, and I had to be in a doctorate program to qualify for the job. Luckily, I was. Had I not gotten that job, I would have never ended up where I am today. So I think that that was the moment I was like, I'm too competitive. And when I saw that Mr. and doctor everybody, I said, I am not walking downwards to talk up to this board as a mister. That ain't gonna happen.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 46:02

So that is a great story. That is a wonderful story. Wow, isn't it amazing? Something like that, you know, in some cases, you know, one event, you know, one moment in time can really change.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 46:15

And well, I was like, this guy, this guy is an idiot. He's got a doctorate, and I can't stand him. He's an idiot, and he's looking down on me. No way. I can do this. Yeah, I can do this for sure. That's yeah, I didn't really think that. Maybe I did.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 46:29

You might have, right? That's right.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 46:30

I think I did.

Vibe Coding, BHAGs, and Closing Thoughts

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 46:31

Good for you. That's awesome. All right. Well, what should I have asked you, or what did you hope I would ask you today that I didn't?

Dr. Joe Sallustio 46:40

Um I hope you would have asked me why I think people should listen to the Ed Up Experience podcast.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 46:48

Oh, of course, of course. Yes.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 46:50

Everybody should listen. Um check out our application, edupleadership.com, or download it on the app store, Ed Up Leadership. And it's actually an we I vibe, I learned vibe coding. Talking about AI. So I vibe coded an app that synthesizes all the information from all 475 plus presidential interviews, and you can search the individual episodes with AI and say, hey, what did Lillian say? What were the biggest insights? Or I we coded it so you can , so the episodes are categorized by theme. So if you want to know about AI and higher ed, or so the AI it categorizes them by theme, and then you could search like 40 episodes all at once and say, what are the ways I can drive enrollment in my university with an AI prompt? And it will give you action items that you should take all on your phone on the go. Oh man every time we release an episode, it just gets better and better and better and better.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 47:46

That is phenomenal.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 47:48

Yeah.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 47:48

So how many times have you had a president on more than once?

Dr. Joe Sallustio 47:54

Probably under 20, 25, maybe. Um, I'll I can tell you this in from 20 April of 2022 to December of 2025, we had seven presidents on more than once. So it's it's low n bers, and and that's not, and I'd say that because our next book is covering that time period. Okay. Um, but it's it's probably under 20.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 48:18

That's awesome. So, what is your big, hairy, audacious goal with EdUp? I mean, you guys are doing such amazing things. Like, what's the what's the end game for you? If you could wave your magic wand, this is what it would be.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 48:31

Um I don't know that we ever have time to think about that because you know we're doing the conference now, Higher Ed PodCon. Yeah,

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 48:39

We'll be there, by the way. We'll be there.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 48:41

Yeah, I know. I'm so appreciative of it that Tiffin's coming. Um, I think I think we our big goal is that we want we want to build a legacy, a brand in higher ed that started from nothing. Like we this was a nothing brand. We just said literally, do you want to do this? And we and to grow it into something that would be looked back on as do you remember, do you remember EdUp covered this stuff? Do you remember those conversations that that contributed to the to the growth of higher ed? I think that's what we're after. I think we're just after the recognition of the hard highlighting the great work that our colleagues across higher ed do.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 49:21

Good for you. I think that's wonderful. I have I so enjoy spending time with you on on your podcast, but just in general too. And , I just really, really appreciate the work that you guys are doing with EdUp. So thank

The Last Word

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 49:33

you.

Dr. Joe Sallustio 49:33

Well, I will let me say one more thing, and that is everybody better listen to this podcast because presidents doing podcasts is when you listen, you are directly supporting the work that we do. So it is really important if you get to listen to this episode that you subscribe to this podcast and listen for weeks and years to come. Thank you.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 49:53

Thank you. I really hope so. It's exciting. This is my first, and I'm just so honored to have you as my first guest and and just really, really appreciate you spending time with me. All right, I'm giving you the last word, my friend. What's the last word? You do this often. I'm gonna turn it back to you. What's the last word for us today?

Dr. Joe Sallustio 50:10

Last word is relevance. Regain it, restore it, own it, and follow leaders like Dr. Lilian Schumacher who are doing that work.

Dr. Lillian Schumacher 50:21

Thank you, Joe. Thank you so much. I hope you have a great rest of your day, and I just really, really appreciate you spending time with me today.